This is an OSV podcast network production. To learn more, visit osv podcast.com. I come to my church fully functioning. I bring myself all that I am, all that. I have, all that I hope to become. I bring my whole history. My traditions, my experience, my culture as gift to the Church. Church.

Hello and welcome back to Hope Stories with me, your host, sister Josephine Garrett. Hope Stories is a podcast where we share stories of experiences that are not often spoken of as gift. Our hope is to encourage our guests, to encourage you, our listeners, and really for all of us to be encouraged to bring our whole selves.

Our whole stories, all that we are as gift to the church for today's episode, we're welcoming Noelle Garcia. Noelle is someone who I've had the honor of knowing and serving within ministry, and we also share a mutual friend, which has enriched our relationship. Noelle is a gift in many ways. I could list a ton of ways that she's a gift and a very beautiful gift in this episode.

The one that stands out to me is Noelle has a lot of experience ministering and serving in the church, and so her commitment to her faith, her commitment in her relationship with Jesus Christ, it has in many ways been thoroughly tried, and yet she remains. Over the years, her faith and her commitment have only grown deeper.

I hope this is an episode that can get in the hands of decision makers in the church ministry, leaders in the church, because I think Noelle and her husband David are uniquely and powerfully positioned in the church to be able to speak wisdom into hard situations. Another thing that stood out to me is she really said something that was her challenging herself, and I think a challenge to all of us.

She said two things. She tells a story of trying to bring her pain, her real pain into her parish community. And in the face of confessing and speaking out loud, the pain that she's in, being met with silence and how much that silence hurt her as her faith community looked back at her and had nothing to say.

To encourage her, support her and run alongside her. Later in the episode, you'll hear Noelle say she had to realize that it was not the responsibility of her parish to create for her the community that she longed for the community where she needed to find support, but that it was something she and her husband had to get intentional about doing.

For themselves on their own, really looking out and choosing who are the people we're gonna run alongside and invite to run alongside us instead of letting that only happen sort of coincidentally in the parish setting. I just think that's a great challenge. Uh, and with that, I offer you Noel story, offer you this episode and I pray that it's helpful to you in some way and definitely helpful in our church.

God bless.

Noelle Garcia ue. I don't think I've ever used your last name ue. Am I saying right? You don't have 

to use, yeah, yeah. No. 

Okay. Yeah, you are. I like it. Noelle Garcia, I'm very happy to welcome you for an episode of season three of the podcast. I'm really excited about this season, and my hope is that it's a gift, you know, to people who need this particular gift.

The way I usually start is I'll share how I know the guest. And then just invite you to introduce yourself to the folks listening in a way that you would like to be introduced. Okay. Okay. Um, so I know Noelle from ministry and actually Noelle, you probably don't remember this. I think the first time I encountered you in ministry, um, it was a Holy Fire middle school conference.

I was having the most difficult time with them children. I did not, I did not know how to reach them. I had never spoken to that many kids at once before, and I did awfully the first day. I mean, it was a hot, hot mess express. And I remember you came to me because we were going to have a different set of middle schoolers the next day, and you came to me.

You told me, these were not your exact words, but the message I took away was that I really had to be with them really where I was now. Um, and I remember I took that to prayer because I was trying to view them from my time in their life where they were now, like my own time at that time. But we're all in the same place, you know, and we only give witness to where we are now.

And so you were a great help to me. God put me on that team that day because I needed to be minister to as well. Hmm. Um, so that's a, that's how I remember meeting you. Love it. You are a gift in the church, so, but please tell our listeners thank you, um, what you would like them to know about you. 

Sure. I do remember being on that team and I, it was not you.

'cause I had served there the year before and they are the hot mess express. We just jump on for the ride, you know? Okay, here we go. Um, but, uh, that's middle school, right? I live in Oklahoma City. I'm the director of Programs for EQ Saints, which stands for equipping the Saints for Ministry, and we do the Holy Fire Middle School conferences.

We train youth ministry leaders and we develop resources for those who work in youth ministry, like youth nights and things like that. I have six kids, eight. My oldest is about to turn 15, and the youngest is four, and my husband is starting his own business. He's a percussive. Guitarist and he invented a product which will hopefully take off and maybe support the family.

And that's pretty much thank you, 

Noelle, for being willing to come and share your story. I knew that I could come to you for this theme for this season. I know I've shared with you in texts that when praying into this and thinking about the gift of the Jubilee year in Isaiah 61, where the prophet speaks about the context in which the year of favor comes, it comes in suffering.

When it comes in captivity and oppression and pain, and I just have a desire to place before Catholics witnesses who can be honest about, Hmm, you know what, it's what it's like to live in love in this, in the context of this church. Just give witness to that, to find hope in that. So same, we are beginning with a closed ended question, which is kind of one of the worst questions to ask closed ended ones.

But for this season, every episode mm-hmm. Does need to begin with this closed ended question. It's have you left the church and came back, or have you felt close to leaving? Pushed towards leaving because of painful experiences and intentionally chose to stay. 

Yes. To the second question. 

Okay. Tell us the story behind the Yes.

That you just gave Noah. 

Yeah, so I started working for the church right out of college. Um, I really had been involved in campus ministry, in youth ministry, and I just felt that youth ministry was my passion and that's where I belonged. I felt an anointing on that call and doors would open up, and I remember within the first six months of working for the church.

Telling my mom, I thought I would be working with people that love Jesus, and that was such a hard reality for me to face, that not everybody was as on fire as I was and not understanding why, not understanding those wounds, not understanding. Where's the passion? Why aren't we excited about evangelism?

Why aren't we excited about trying new things? You know? And I was like yelled at by parents for different ridiculous things, like you kept them five minutes late or yelled at because I booked a room that somebody else needed for their ministry, but I booked it first and it's like. What is happening here that's so territorial.

And my response in those beginning years was, okay, if I've been hurt by the, by the church, I will find a different place to work within the church. And so I would, I find a different place. Then we started having kids and, and so I would find different jobs based on our lifestyle changes. But when 2020 hit and all the churches shut down, we had this big meeting.

With our staff where I was working at the time, and everybody's sitting six feet apart, everybody's wearing a mask. And our leader was like, how are you doing? How are you really doing? And I unloaded. I said, I am very upset. I'm very. Angry. I am pregnant. I wasn't expecting to have a baby in 2020, you know, and they're telling me I'm gonna have to labor with a mask on.

I can't receive the Eucharist because our churches are shut down. We've lost all our jobs except for, you know, all our extra jobs are that supplement our income. We had to go to Catholic charities for groceries that month. So all of these things I just unloaded and I share my pain, and it was silence.

Nobody said. Their own pain. Nobody said, I'm so sorry you're going through that, or I'll pray for you. And that was the peak culmination of why am I here? Why am I in this church? I am not safe here. I can't share my pain, I can't be vulnerable. And that was kind of a repeated message throughout my entire.

Um, you know, particularly ministry life was people were repulsed when you share your weaknesses and I thought, okay, well if I can't even receive the Eucharist, we should just leave. Both my husband and I were like, maybe we should find a different church. He was dealing with his own church, hurt from different things and, and we had to really.

Take it to prayer. And it just so happened that that coming weekend, the, the masses were gonna be open to back up. Mm. And I go into the church and I'm still angry. I'm seeing everybody, you know, wearing masks and so far away. We had just moved to a new place. So we didn't even have friends that we could walk this journey with in our area.

And. I was like, Lord, I, I don't know if I can worship you. Here. Everybody is so held back. Nobody shares their pain. Nobody. I just don't think I can worship. And after receiving communion, I felt the Lord say, that's not what worship is. Worship is you make a gift of yourself to me. Hmm. And that was a turning point where I started to have some healing with some of the pain of like, these people are keeping me from worship.

Well, no, these people are people that I need to forgive. And these people are people that are very frustrating to me, but they're not people that are hindering me from worship. My own gift of self is my worship. And so that's, that's the short story of why we. Ended up not deciding together as a married couple.

Not leaving. 

No. I I'm gonna ask a question kind of to take you back to it, but from a different view in a second. But I wanna share something with you, and I'm sharing this with you because I, I heard it in something that you said. Her mom is a client and the daughter wanted to see me, and so I brought the daughter just to help her understand I couldn't see both, you know, but I can help her find somebody who would be good for her just to see her face to face and kinda warm hand her off versus just telling her no teen girl and having some struggles.

And we talked about the struggles and what they looked like and what kind of counselor might be a good help for her, a good fit. Looked at a couple people to see who she felt drawn towards. Then in the end, I just happened to say, well, how is all this with your faith? It was similar. Her friends who she encountered in the faith had fallen silent in the face of her pain, and it left her feeling very isolated and alone.

It was a child like 13, 14-year-old child. She said, I know they love Jesus. I just can't tell, and I just will never forget it. Hmm. Because I know you pray, and I know your faith is real, but for the listener, can you put some words to what unfolded in you, interiorly and spiritually as you started to encounter these painful experiences in the church?

What was happening in that, like across that time in you interiorly and spiritually? 

It was breaking trust. Okay. It was eroding my trust. It was eroding my trust in institutionally, and this was something that I have over the course of, of walking with other people who have struggled and my own struggle, my husband struggles with, with different things.

There, there has to be a distinction between the. The sacramental church that Jesus established and the bureaucratical church that we build up around that sacramental church. The sacraments are for our healing, and the bureaucratic pieces are for a. Management sometimes those types of things. Human sin kinda works its way into that.

I mean, and I've seen this with lots of people that make the decision to leave the church or make the decision to enter the church. There's always this crossroads of do I trust what Jesus has said, that this is his church and he will not abandon it? Or am I fed up and I just, I, I wanna leave. And, and there have been, there was a time.

Around 2020 where I just went in the chapel and I was on my knees. Like, Lord, what is wrong with this? This cannot be the church that you established and wanted, and just pouring my heart out because I, I felt lost. You know, Lord, if this is the church, why is this, why are these people so hurtful? And so my spiritual director kind of led me on this path of bringing up those incidents over the history and just being like in the name of Jesus, I forgive this person for this situation.

And. Forgiveness and and trust have to go kind of hand in hand that as you forgive, you're working towards building that trust. And it might not necessarily be with that person, but that person has affected my trust in the Lord and his promises through the church. That's because they kind of seem like one and the same.

Yeah. Our trust is in the power of Christ. To ultimately keep his promise that he's gonna transform all of that, but it blends. I start to blend my trust into, so that means I can trust this person before me. This reality, before me, your feeling was lost. What are the other feelings that were in your heart throughout this period?

Feeling lost. It sounds like you felt betrayed. What else? Mm-hmm. Oh, 

blinding rage. Mm-hmm. Which is a secondary 

emotion, right? You'll make me get my Anger shield book. There's always something under it. Yeah. What 

else? Job insecurity. I'm feeling like, well, I can't, I can't be my true self because I work for the, I can't tell you why I'm so mad at you because I work here and my family's dependent upon.

This job. And so I'm afraid to bring up the conflict that I have or the issue. So you're afraid, even in a productive and constructive way, because this is our livelihood and ministry is our livelihood. And now I've, I've been a lot more open about my struggles and well known leaders in the church have also come forward and said, yeah, like this, some things in.

In the bureaucratic aspect of the church are broken. They're very broken. The way we sometimes hold people hostage to our expectations instead of allow God the time and grace to transform. You know, we had a kid who came to one of our groups who. Was refused. Communion. He had just come back to the church.

He had lost his dad, he was homeless, was on drugs, had a dream that his dad appeared to him and his dad was like, you're coming with me? And he was like, yes. And he came back and he said he was judged for his appearance. And that was made very clear to him that he wasn't welcome until he changed his appearance.

And he said to me, these words that I will never forget. He goes, I thought they would be happy that I came back. 

Mm-hmm. And now Hess not back, but he said, we be held, we be held. We behave like the elders then, right? 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like we, these are my expecta and our expectations are that we are perfect, but not as Christ is perfect, but perfect.

As you are not weak, you don't show your weakness, you, you don't struggle. We want the good face of you. That's really hard when you're on a journey to holiness and you're trying to walk in the sacramental path to that holiness, knowing that the sacraments sanctify and knowing that the Catholic church is the only church that has the, the sanctifying grace of the sacraments and the physical presence of, of the Lord in that way, but, but also wrestling with the, the people that distribute the sacraments sometimes they're not perfect either.

Yeah. Yeah. What's my patience with, with that, 

Noelle, as the pain unfolded, what did this struggle look like? Unfolding as much as you can share unfolding in your marriage and in your family. Right? Because we're not, we're one person, one of our sisters says that to me. She'll, she'll say, if you're struggling with this at work, like you're gonna struggle with it.

It's coming everywhere with you, but she says it comes everywhere with you because God is merciful, is how she describes it. Mm-hmm. 

Mm-hmm. And so 

how, how did the pain in fact, impact your family life and your marriage? 

I mean, we're just venting all the time, you know, between David and I, different situations that we've had where somebody has hurt us or somebody, um, uh.

Just the, whatever leadership was, was not as strong as it we wish that it would be. We're just venting and complaining all the time and trying to catch ourselves to not, you know, father Robert Spitzer calls it the arrows of Darkness, where we continue to just rehash situations. Mm. And he says to interrupt those arrows of darknesses, like that pleasure that we get from rehashing the situation.

And with a, a prayer of gratitude. So we have tried very hard when to catch ourself and say, okay, we gotta stop talking about this. But then we also tell our kids like, we are not here for. A particular priest or a particular group or a particular ministry, we're here for Jesus and the sacraments and you are gonna encounter pain.

Even faithful, good Catholics may hurt you at some point. They're something that they may do because we're not perfect. So we try really, really, really hard. To instill in our kids that they don't have this false idea. Like, oh, what do you mean The church is great. Everybody's great. We're everybody's good Catholics.

Like, we don't say that to them at all because we're not, until we get to heaven, we are not perfected in this life. And so, you know, 

until we get to heaven, we are broken. Period. Yes. Tell me more about, you know, you said you had a proper ordering of your. Your understanding of worship, right? Like your worship, your sense of worship was properly ordered in that prayer.

But what else has reconciliation looked like for you and the recommitment looked like for you? 

Mm, well, I think one of the graces that. That I feel that's been a special grace, particularly through trial, is the Lord has given me the grace to keep showing up when I don't feel it, when I am angry. I remember one time going into the church and I'd had a big conflict with somebody who is volunteering and I see him coming straight towards me.

We're the only two in the church. He, and he's making a beeline straight towards me and I just prayed, Lord, keep that man away from me. And he turned around and he walked out of the church and I was like, thank you. Thank you so much. Um, but for me it's been just the grace of continuing to show up and con and being real and honest with my frustrations.

Um mm-hmm. Lord, if I'm ever. A saint. I hope that they put on my holy card, like patron saint of cranky people, because I'm not confrontational until there has to be a confrontation and then it's watch out, you know, it's unleashed, it's, we're done. It's unleash well, and nobody thinks that about me. So it kind of just, you know, it takes them off guard when it's tolerate, tolerate, tolerate, kill, you know?

Um, just kidding, but kind of, and then also rethinking. Okay. The parish is where I receive my sacraments, and sometimes my community has to be found elsewhere. And as a disciple, I am called and expected to create Christian community. It's not the parish's job to create that for me. It's my job as a disciple.

And so we have found just to step outside of again, the bureaucratic pieces of things, we started just inviting people to our house to pray with us. And it's been the most amazing and beautiful thing because if people don't like us, they don't come. You know, and so, and we get 

that choice. When I was working in the school, they would want me at the school to force them all to be friends, and I was like, that's part of the dignity of the human person is that we have the freedom to choose, you know, who we have things we owe that are due to one another, injustice, respect, and charity and things like this.

Who you is, your community, there's some intentionality that you get to bring to that. Yeah. And they choose you and you choose them, and then y'all run alongside each other, you know, so. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. And, and those are the people you can expect to share your pain or should be able to expect to share your pain, where it's not always gonna be.

Okay, I, I go to this Bible study every Wednesday, and those people are gonna share my pain. They might not, they might not be my friends. They may be a church group, a nice church group, but not really connected closely enough with me to share that pain. And so I've had to rethink a little bit how I view the, my activity in a particular church.

And my own activity as a disciple and what that looks like. And sometimes it looks like investing in the church and and doing something in the church. And sometimes it just looks like building up Christian community around our family. Mm-hmm. Around our marriage. I just had a friend text me this weekend and say that she went.

To the holy stairs that Jesus walked during his crucifixion and she went up on her knees and she said, I was carrying you in prayer as I was going up these stairs on my knees. And that's church. Yes. You know, it's not a building, it's not programs, it's the life of the Christian. Lived in relationship with others.

Yeah. The rock that the church is built on is the friend of Jesus, right? Mm-hmm. Like that's underneath. There's the bones of the man who was a friend to him. Uh, they, they, they struggled in their friendship, you know, but in the end, he was faithful as a friend. There is something that I would want to, I want to invite you to speak into more because I think you're among the guests in a unique position.

It's very vulnerable when you have paired together, being able to feed your family and keep your lights on and live and serving in the church. And so then there becomes this dynamic of, I'm hurting, but I'm afraid to address this pain 'cause I need to feed my family. Mm-hmm. How has making peace with that happened for y'all?

We have had to seek support a lot of times outside of our. Workplace, you know? Mm-hmm. Go to confession in another parish, in another town, or just try to find friends who are not connected specifically to our place of employment. Mm-hmm. So, like Deanna for example, she moved away from the church that we were working at.

We actually became closer ministerial friends because it was like, okay, she's a good Catholic. I know she has a sense about these things and I can share what we're going through with her. But then there's also the fact that we've had situations where the Lord has called us to. Drop everything and, and leave, leave the situation.

Like your ministry is not bearing fruit anymore. It can't. You're trying and you're begging your head against the wall constantly and there's no fruit here and you're not bearing fruit. You're just mad all the time. And so it is time to leave and we've had a situation where we left and without a job, we didn't have anything lined up.

And, and having to really trust God's providence, he is going to take care of us. He does care that we're not. Storming off in anger, but we've prayed. We've discerned that this is what we're called to do. When I did quit without having a job lined up, and then I booked every single possible speaking engagement and confirmation retreat and all the things, and I remember being so exhausted and I was like, okay, Lord, you knew I was gonna screw this up, that, that I was gonna freak out and I was gonna not trust you to provide me a job.

And so I started booking all the things. So I need you to help me right now. 

I do feel called right now to speak into this. I've been grateful for you and David. The two of you, I have not seen you sacrifice, sacrifice yourselves, um, sacrifice your consciences in order to stay paid. And I get so concerned as I watch the subtle descent into something other than ministry that's being called ministry because families need to be fed.

Mm-hmm. And so when I look at that and I see it. Kind of in Catholic American media, you know what I, what I see there are people who are not malicious, but scared and have bills available. Mm-hmm. It's not two or three kids. A lot of times it's 5, 6, 7, 8 kids. Mm-hmm. And so what you're talking about like the private, the trust in providence and the radical, yeah.

The radical trust and the radical faith that is going to be necessary. For someone who has paired ministry with providing for their family, I don't think is discussed and fostered enough. Yeah. And I think because it's not discussed and fostered enough, the enemy has been able to be very active. Mm-hmm.

And to, to disfigure hearts that truly sought and were seeking to be, yeah. To love Christ and be for his kingdom. 

Yeah. Well that's the lie that we are told from young children that we have to do well in school to get good jobs, to provide for our families and provide, that's a word that belongs to God.

Hmm. That's divine providence. Protect our family even. When the Lord called Joseph into his responsibility with Marian to marry her, he, he asked her to protect her, but he provided the direction. He woke him up in the night and said, okay, it's time to go. And so that's what I think is, is the lie that we believe, whether we're in ministry, whether we're in a secular field, is that I have to stay miserable and I, my family has to suffer because we have to have money in the bank account.

Like no. What would happen if we said, God, you are the provider. Okay, now what do you want us to do? God has provided when we've been negative in our bank account for like three years in a row, we still made it. We're not on the street yet. And yet we are. We always good stewards of what he gives us. No. Do I go to coffee shops way too often?

Absolutely. And so we try, but that kind of relieves a little bit of pressure to make the right decision. And to not be led into what the world says or to not be led into a particular ideology is God, you are the provider here and, and I shouldn't be afraid. 

Mm-hmm. Love seasoned truth. And so you've shared some of it already.

Part of this revelation of truth for you from being that initial person working in the church, like I bought team Jesus to where you are now. Part of that, I hate this team. I wanna get cut from this team. So part of the revelation of truth is to really see the sacramental bride and truth, right? Like we conflate that so easily.

But the bride is the sacramental church, right? That's Christ's bride, not the U-S-C-C-B or, but his bride is the sacramental church. And so that's a revelation of truth. How would you, in summary, say you see this beautiful gift of the church in greater truth now than you did when you first set out to serve in ministry?

Well, it's like. A, a married life, right? You idealize your spouse, you're like, oh, you are the best ever. And then they start leaving their underwear on the floor and they, you know, forget to take the kid to the doctor appointment and all this stuff. And then you're like, wow, I cannot stand you anymore. And I think that's a very honest and a real, and.

A place to be in a relationship with the church and even with the Lord because like we, we've just read the gospel of, you know, that features doubting Thomas and I just imagine Thomas's pain that all his friends have seen. Jesus resurrected and he was one of his closest friends too, and he's the last one.

To get, to really experience the risen Lord and just how frustrating that would be. I've been here, you know, I've been faithful. I've been waiting and you know, but then Jesus gives him an experience that the other apostles didn't have. And not only that, but my friend reminded me, he went further. In evangelization geographically than any of the other apostles.

I think it's an okay thing to really wrestle with the church to be mad at the church. I don't think it's okay to be hurt by the church, but I think it's a thing that happens and we have to say it. There's probably times in ministry where I have hurt somebody and I didn't mean to and trying to to have forgiveness.

Actually, one side story is when I was a new youth minister, we caught a couple kids smoking pot and. I didn't know what to do. I'm 22 years old. I go to the pastor and he wasn't totally sure what to do. And so what we decided to do was give them a consequence, which was to take out the trash at the end of the youth night, and those kids stopped coming and 10 years later I found them on Facebook and I messaged them and I said, Hey, I am really sorry.

I didn't meet you where you were. I didn't hear what you were going through. I just punished you and I'm really sorry. And they wrote back and they were super receptive to the apology. But I think about that often my inflicting a pain on somebody that I, because I just was so into my own self preservation as the youth minister that I did not consider.

Their feelings and their pain. They just didn't care to ask because I was so concerned about myself. So whether we are on a side where we have inflicted ministerial wounds and we need to apologize, or even just as a Catholic, I didn't represent the Catholic faith very well, and I'm sorry to be able to say we're sorry and have that humility, but then also to be able to have the humility to forgive, because I do think that that involve forgiveness or humility because I'm not always in control of situations or.

I'm not always right and even if I am right, I shouldn't latch onto that to make, to build myself up. There's a way 

would be right. Yeah. There's a way. I love what you said, self-preservation, like that could be a whole examination of conscience. Right? And encounter. What if these behaviors are for self-preservation and one of them, or to preserve the coming of the kingdom?

Like versus myself? 

Yeah, 

you said wrestle, like it's good to wrestle. Literally, that is what Israel means. So the people of God were people who were wrestling. You said it, it's not okay to be hurt by the church. And I love that you're interchanging the church and her members, right? Mm-hmm. And so, and you did that with the stairs too.

The church carried you up the stairs. Mm-hmm. You know, in her member. And so, mm-hmm. And just for us to enter into that. Mystery as well. But if it happens, we need to say it. And that's what one of the things in my prayer with Isaiah 61 that I was touched by as well, that for this favor of this year of favor, this jubilee favor to be ushered in, there does have to be a confession, just an acknowledgement.

And so that was one of my. Hopes. You know, my, one of my hopes with this season is that a proper concession, 

my boss reminded me, Robert Fiduciary. Mm-hmm. But he reminded me that Jesus asked us to be grafted onto the vine. We are the vine, or he's the vine, and we are the branches. But in order to be grafted onto a vine, both the vine and the graft have to be wounded.

Come on. He said, yes. Wound to wound. We are with the Lord. Mm. If somebody's hurting right now and, and listening to this and has been hurt by the church, like, keep showing up. Put your wounds in Jesus's wounds. He will heal them. He'll still give you the grace you need to get through 

and in the mystery, like make that gift in the church.

Because you are gifts like you are not less gift because you have been wounded. Right. Exactly. You've been known pain. I'm so grateful for you. I'm so grateful for you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you. 

Thank you, sister. 

Thank you for listening to that episode with Noelle Garcia. Like I said in the beginning, she is an incredible gift.

Her family is a gift, and so I ask that you pray for her. Pray for her husband David. Pray for her family, all of her kids, her extended family as well. Know that I am all. Always praying for you and grateful for you, and ask for your prayers for me. St. Thomas s. Pray for us. 

God bless.

This has been a production of osv podcast. To learn more, visit osv podcasts.com.